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Posts Tagged ‘verses’

Well, we all know I love talking about marriage, and submission/love.  It’s not that I dwell on it, but it always interests me to hear how other women view it.  There are so many women out there, married, single, Christian, non-Christian, happy, sad, all kinds that all have questions or have different variations on what they believe and practice when it comes to marriage vows/commandments in the Bible.

I’ve posted many blogs on it, if you haven’t read them here’s the links:
Husbands love your wives (more than just a little)
Submission…when he’s lovin’ you better be submittin’

This is what I think most women that don’t agree with submission view it as. Truth is, it’s much more than that.

Last time I posted a blog about it this conversation ensued on my FB page.  I’ve changed our real names, but it was with a friend who decidedly disagrees with me, at least that’s what I thought at first.  In the end, I realized that she’s been hurt before, and like most women, has changed her mind about how a marriage should work.  I am ever grateful that she opened up and allowed me to ask her some questions to further understand her.

  • HERE WE GO! (It is edited for names, irrelevant content and length – yes, it was longer)
    • MM I read your blog. I don’t disagree with what you are saying… but I don’t agree either. It could be that I was raised by hippies…. it could be that I have HUGE feminist viewpoints, or it could be that I’m just one big ol’ control freak. I’ve always felt that any partnership is equal.. with both parties pitching in, in all areas of the relationship. I truly don’t think I would ever be able to let go and just let someone lead me.
    • Mel Our marriage is very equal – ask Big Daddy. I think most non-Christians feel like you do. I don’t even know if you are a Christian…I’m just going with what I hear(in your words)! As always, everything doesn’t work for everyone!
    • J What does Christian versus non-Christian have to do with it…did I miss something? And the term “Christian” is veryyyy subject to interpretation and some interpretations are quite interesting. I’m not arguing…I’m asking because I’m curious.
    • MM you make a good point J. I’m not trying to argue either… just found it very interesting. oh, and I’m a christian. 😉
    • J I’m not…but I promise I’m a long way from a heathen devil worshiper, too.
    • Big Daddy Equality and submission are more closely linked than most would think. The christian vs non-christian is more of a point of view of the situation in general. Following biblical doctrine is why Mel is submissive. So if you don’t follow the teachings of the bible, your view point is completely different than her’s.  I actually seek her council on most everything, so it isn’t like I am “Lord of My Domain.” When she is submissive to me and I am submissive to God, then she is submissive to God through me. Believe me I always have her best interest in mind. Part of being submissive to God is having the best interest of her and the kids before any of my wants or desires.
    • Mel Sorry, I’m not answering, I’m over here doing family tree! D can answer for me…not because he rules but because I’m busy:)  Or they could read the other post about your duty to God and me! https://justalittlemel.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/husbands-mine-especially-love-your-wives-not-just-a-little/Check that, his commandment is much harder in my view!
    • Mel J, I say Christian/non-Christian, because it’s normally a huge difference if you don’t believe as a Christian does. It’s not any reference to who is better, simply the belief system/chain of command of a marriage is different between the two.
    • MM Very interesting. I thank your husband for his input. 🙂
    • Big Daddy If you really look at it, I am submissive to my family and especially my wife. The word seems to have a bad connotation, but anytime you put someone before yourself you are being submissive to their wants, needs and desires. It’s what we do every day for the ones we love. It’s an exchange of respect.
    • Mel Not to mention, if you don’t want to read that other post…he has to love me…he’s commanded to. All the time, no matter what, even to the extent of making me happy and taken care of BEFORE himself. What’s not to like there? MM – I would love to ask you some things without offending you…just to hear your take – is that ok?
    • MM Absolutely! go for it, and… for the record… my responses are not to offend anyone. Just my opinions. 🙂
    • Mel YAY! OK. So most people I hear from on this topic are either:a) not Christian, which I think makes a huge difference on how you view the household chain of command (God, husband, wife, kids)
      b) men who just want their wives to shut up and listen
      or
      c) Christian and agree with me.You stated you are a Christian and don’t see how you could let go and let someone lead you. I’d like to know what vows you used, and without sounding mean, did those include “love, honor, obey” or anything with biblical reference in your vows or how did you come to agree to vows to use in your ceremony? I guess what I’m asking is, being Christian, do you choose not to believe those verses (mentioned in the blog) or what’s your take on that part of the Bible? What do YOU view submission as, and how do you view the alternate command that your husband “love your wives as Christ did the church.” Do you feel your husband should love you that much, in the way that Christ did – dying for our sins?That’s pretty much it, I would also like to add, that when I was single and a mom, working full time, and doing everything…I felt VERY much like you. I couldn’t imagine letting go of the reins – nothing would have gotten done. I can make decisions, I can call all the shots, I can multitask, and I always think my way is the best way, we are women…it’s just how we are. That has not faded a bit! Someone said that women shouldn’t be submissive because when and if the husband ever leaves or dies she will have no clue how to handle life. I’ve been divorced and had a husband die…both not fun, but unless you are remedial, you can handle life. I have willingly given things to D that I used to stress over, or hate doing, or not want to do that I had to do…and now, I get to relax and enjoy life and things that I couldn’t before because I have a partner and husband that handles things for me. It’s quite freeing to not HAVE to handle everything!
    • Mel Oooh girl…. I’m going to have to smoke first. 😉 give me a few minutes.
    • Mel LOL, I hope that didn’t come across bad, I am truly asking. Just as many people don’t see how I or anyone could “agree” to submit, I want to know different views.
    • MM Ok…. here we go!! 🙂 Well… when I was married (getting a divorce I asked for) our vows said “to love and honor.”  I specifically omitted “obey” for a reason. See… we were originally going to get married in a catholic church. However, we had to do this like 500 question test thingy. In this test, it had as one of the questions “the MAN will be the head of the household…. agree or disagree” I not only circled disagree a 1000 times, I put “not a chance in hell.”  Of course, that got flagged by the priest. He asked me why. I told him what I told you earlier. He said what you said earlier. I said that I feel it should be 2 people working together to accomplish one goal. He said you can’t do that without leadership… I agreed and said God will lead us and together we battle the decisions. We got a letter later that week telling us the priest refused to marry us b/c I needed to prove to him “on a constant and continuing basis” that I was a good catholic. Yeah… that didn’t go so well for me. I have a sailor’s mouth… but I digress.  In my opinion, the Bible is viewed differently by each person who reads it. Take for instance some of the Morman’s believe that polygamy is not only the right thing to do…but the ONLY way… and God’s way. While having another gal around the house to do the cleaning and laundry would rock… I couldn’t see my husband sleeping with another woman. EVER. I’m too jealous for that. So, to them, I’m not living the way of God.
    • Mel Again, just asking questions here, and if it’s not something you wanna answer say so, and D said to make sure you know I’m not questioning your “Christian-ness” at all. I’m asking what you believe. Also, if you’d rather answer NOT on here, I’d be fine talking in PM. Got it, was it THAT guy or just anyone in general you don’t feel is “qualified” to be the head besides you? Where does your belief that it’s ok NOT to agree with the man as the head come from? Meaning do you feel there is some biblical backup for what you believe?I agree with what you said, 2 people under God’s leadership – hence what I said about if I didn’t like how D handled something I have backup…he has to be in line with God, and if he’s not, I go to God, I can go OVER D’s head. I guess it comes down to what you feel you can handle as a couple, and what you are ok with, I’ve just never known a Christian woman that openly said she didn’t agree with the verses, so thank you for letting me ask:)  I totally love Sister Wives…we watch it every week and on Netflix. I see an issue with that though, where Kody has said that he thinks it’s sickening and vile to imagine one of his wives with multiple husbands…really? However, that is their belief system, I also don’t believe in the book of Mormon, so I don’t know what it says but I do know what the Bible says, and Catholic or Baptist (or whatever) we use the same Bible…that has the same verses, so I wanted to know the…um…justification for not agreeing with it on the submission part.
    • MMMy husband took me for granted.. practically ignored me and I spent 12 years of my life trying to make it work b/c I do (or did) not believe in divorce. I signed up for this deal. I prepared to share my life with someone forever. I spent 12 years feeling more alone in a marriage than I did when I was single. So… as hard as it was for me… I left him. Shortly after. I met a most amazing man. He loves me, my kids and we take amazing care of each other. I believe God put him in my path. Is our situation ideal? Hell no. Would have this been the path I chose for myself? Hell no. However… I feel because I didn’t just submit and resign myself to “this is my life” and submit to my husband… I was given a new lease on life. I feel as if I tried every avenue with my husband to make it work, to make us (or should I say myself) happy. I guess that’s how I feel about the submitting to your husband thing. I feel that doing so…. you can loose a part of yourself by working so hard to please someone else. I feel I lost a bit of ME by trying so very hard to get him to be pleased with me. (which… I’m a HUGE people pleaser by nature and that’s not always a good thing).

      Now that I’m with this new person… I “spoil” him as I call it. He’s treated like a king. And equally, I’m treated as a queen. However… if we were to ever get married, I’m positive we would do things as a team. I want as much input as he does. And no one gets the final say. Not that I don’t trust him. I feel that we are both walking down this path together and we can both show each other the flowers and amazing things that we each see from our sides of the road. I want to learn from him and vice versa. I don’t feel that can happen if one person has the final say… even if it’s been discussed first. I’m sure a lot of that has to do with my upbringing. My parents discussed everything together. They also weren’t really into the whole religion thing. Ever really. (as a side note… I ALMOST became a nun. For real.) So, my examination of the bible tells me that what I do for my boyfriend is how I should be doing it. That’s my interpretation.
    • Mel We are very alike. I was in a relationship for 9 years, married for the last 3…he was a non-Christian and did not exhibit any type of leadership besides “you should do what I say.” I did not submit simply because he did not lead…had he led and not just demanded I do what he said, it would have been fine. I did all I could to make that marriage work, in the end he chose to try to cheat…I left. I do not allow anyone to treat me bad, there is no excuse for it. I met D, and we clicked immediately. He was a gift from God. (See ,we are alike) However, I was most ready and able to submit because D leads because he is led. He does not simply sit around telling me to clean and cook him dinner and shut up. He provides guidance and we together provide a happy home. I know happy homes can be achieved in other situations than ours. I feel like I gained back SO MUCH OF ME, because I am free to be me with D…and know I am loved through all of my “me-ness.”  Thank you for your insight! I wish you all the best in your marriage, and encourage you to step a little outside and see if it could be even better with the good man you have now!  Don’t be offended, but I think you have a submissive heart and don’t want to label it as that. There are not any differences in you and me through what you have said, except I admit to agreeing with the verses. I can’t tell you how many times my idea is the one we go with after talking about something. More often than not, D says “you know, you are right, I think this is how we should handle ____.” And it was my idea! We council each other. Submission has nothing to do with him having the “last word.” It’s about how I act/react to him.
    • MM I’m a hell of an enigma. But I LOVE talking about this. It is interesting and I get to learn something about others! 🙂 I think my reactions depend on the person I’m with. And I definitely don’t do labels. Except freaking AWESOME. Just because I am. ;)‎(and it takes a LOT to offend me)
    • Mel Me too! I really don’t see one bit of difference in our relationships or even our backgrounds (I was raised strict Baptist – no pants, no rock music). I think that there are some women, like yourself, who don’t truly “get” the submit and what it means. Or have been through a bad relationship and use that. You can ask anyone to describe me…headstrong and bossy is top of the list. D calls it “forceful opinions.”
    • MM  ROFL… I call it “my way or the highway.”  The only tattoo I have I got when I was 19. It’s a yin yang. It’s suiting for me. It shows balance, equality and that’s how I feel about all of my relationships.
    • Mel So, that is why I say I don’t think people “get it” it’s not about being shy, quiet, meek and mild…it’s about how to treat him and how he treats you. Also, to reference your post about your ex – I said it in the blog, and an old blog…you are not responsible to submit to someone who is devastating you. It is not a commandment to suffer. When you are with a man who looks to God, and loves you so much that he does everything for YOUR good and your betterment…there is no suffering or devastation. As I said, D is here as an extension of God’s love for me, he takes care of me in a human capacity as he is led by God. To me that is just amazing and I don’t get how someone could not want that?

I will say that I feel, after reading again and again (for editing), that my main question was not answered.  I’d love some input and answers from those that feel willing to do so.

My question is: if you are a Christian, and choose NOT to like/believe/live by/adhere to the submission part of your marriage, how do you justify that?  How do you just ignore those verses?  Also, do you feel your husband should love you as he is commanded to, if you do not believe in submission?

I’d love to hear your thoughts!

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I’m a fan of My Big Fat Greek Wedding…I’d like to give myself props for my title (it took me 5 mins to come up with).

As I pulled this up to start a new post I realized how much I’ve changed (for the better) in a few years.  I had always believed what I do now, but when you don’t have the opportunity to be heard, or truly practice what you believe it becomes back burner and so hard to do.  I am thankful that I have the husband, marriage, relationship and ability to study and learn about things I’ve always agreed with and was raised to believe.  My posts are more in depth because I am learning more about what it is I need and where I am supposed to be in life.

Where I am/we are in life is a trying place to be in.  I’ve been reading and spending time on finding out as much as I can to help me/him/us make the best decision, to be able to deal with whatever decision we make, and to know what I can do, should do and need to not do in order to help D through this.  Divorce is a pain, children are a blessing, and ex’s are – well, unless you’re lucky, they’re a pain too, some more than others.  If you add all that together, there is huge potential for the kids to become a pain as well.  I’m not harping on a certain kid, because in all I’ve dealt with from OUR kids, they all can be a pain at times.  No one more than the other.

At this time I am not going to blog about the whole story, but I’ll say that we need prayers for wisdom, discernment, patience and healing right now.  You can include D’s daughter in that (we’ll call her B), and our entire family as a whole.  It is not fun, and it is emotionally draining for all parties involved.  I am also going to TRY to be nice and not too descriptive here, except for what is needed to get to my story.  I don’t want this to be a bash the ex post, but it is my blog and I do need to get some things out, so deal with it.

One big happy family!

This post came to me after something D’s ex said in her email of wildly accusatory and totally off base ranting (it’s amazing that some people can function with no rational thoughts).  She referred to a comment that was made to B from D.  In short, although it was an entire conversation between the two of them, that the order of the household is “God, husband, wife, kids.”  B didn’t like this, and even took it up with 2 different counselors who informed her that indeed, it was biblical.  Apparently that wasn’t enough, because she talked about it with her mother also, who saw the chance to try to use that against D.

The ex feels that there is an exception to this “rule” – which isn’t truly a rule, and honestly there is not one verse in the Bible that says “God, husband, wife, kids.”  There are verses that outline this order and we’re going to check those out in a minute.  Back to the ex, she feels that the exception (because right now it fits her case that D is not a good father) is a remarriage.  As in, now that B is the biological, first child in my and D’s relationship, SHE should come before me (the third wife).  Lest we forget that the ex herself was a step-mom to B, and had she not come first in her marriage, it wouldn’t have lasted as long as it did.  However, she herself has no desire to realize this fact.   Instead, she’s going to harp on how our marriage and family set up is not in line with the Bible.   Knowing who she is, and seeing her in action, I really have a hard time taking biblical advice from this woman, but I did as I should have and took it as an opportunity to get my Bible knowledge on…sorry, I need humor right now.

So, as part of my lifelong, never-ending quest to prove people wrong learn new things, we’re going to explore.

We’ll start with the basics:

Genesis 2:24 (KJV)

24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Matthew 19:6 (KJV)

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

When a man and a woman marry, he (and she) obviously leaves his parents and becomes his own family, with his new wife, they are now joined.  Equal, in God’s eyes as a unit.  They are to be family to each other, and one.  Without going too far in to this verse, it is clear the unit that is now created.  As children growing up, we are to obey our father and mother, once we “leave” that family unit and are joined to another, our new responsibility is to our spouse.  We are not to discard the relationships and responsibilities to our parents (as parents grow older it is our job to care for and provide for them, and as their children we should always heed advice and respect their view), rather we are to put FIRST the marriage.  Most marriages start without children, however it is understood that with or without children the unit of husband and wife cannot stand strong, function, thrive, or create a foundation to raise children in if it is not a complete and healthy unit that can stand on its own and be strong for those that are in it and those that come along as a result of it.  In that statement we can clearly see the importance and reason for the “unit” and the responsibility of the marriage (vows).

As for the “this applies to the covenant/first marriage” people, I do not want to get into a “divorce is not allowed” type discussion.  I will disagree with you all day long, and can and will back it up.  This post is not about that.  In short, my view on divorce is that it is HIGHLY discouraged, and not biblical in most cases.  However, it is divorce that is not approved by God, not those that have chosen divorce, or had to endure one for reasons that most of the world should butt out of!  None of us are perfect, and those that portray that they are perfect are usually just trying to divert attention from the weeds in their own garden.  I give you this as part of my argument and then we’ll move on:

Deuteronomy 24:1-4 describes a woman who has been divorced because of “uncleanness” (v.1). The Bible says that when she remarries, she “becomes another man’s wife” (v.2). Thus, the Bible acknowledges that the two became husband and wife in covenant marriage, even though it was her second marriage.

We’re married…now what? Babies!!!!!!! Or in our case, we’re married, now we have “our” kids.  Blended families are a special thing.  They are especially hard, different, trying, fun and lots of work.  No matter how or when our base unit is started, or who is in it now, it is still the foundation of the family, blended, or first time.  We can turn to our Bible to see what God says about this new addition to the original (base) unit.

Ephesians 6:1-3 (KJV)

1Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.

2Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise;

3That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

So, we know that to have children we need two people preferably a husband/wife unit as God outlines, and once that unit is here, we have children who are commanded to obey your parents.  It doesn’t say “obey your biological parents only” or “obey the parent you feel is on your side.”  It says parents.  A child (or ex) can’t pick and choose which verses are ok to suit their case.  NO, there is no exception, it is the RULE.  Children obey (all) parents.  Biological, step, adoptive, right, wrong, mean, nice, out of state – PARENTS.  It warns that you want to do this so you may live long on the earth.  If we take that into consideration for what it really says we can use the example that if your mother tells you not to go in the street without looking both ways, and you do so, you could get hit by a car.  Harsh? Yes.  Truthful?  Very. It also means in a figurative way in that you will live long because of the wisdom and protection of your parents.

As I mentioned there is not a specific verse that gives us this order of God, husband, wife, children.  Yet by using our brains and reading we can see it clearly outlined and understand the reasoning.

With all of that said there are obvious deviations and limits to what we must attend to first.  I wrote this assuming that we are adults and have common sense.  Each child has needs, and as parents our first duty is to protect and love our children, to teach them, raise them, and discipline them.   I am in no way suggesting that children are not to be cared for.  Obviously if your child is bleeding outside and needs you, and your husband would like a glass of water while you’re in the kitchen – you can let him know it’ll be a minute because your child is hurt.  We aren’t talking about neglect here.  I am speaking on behalf of the emotional, love, bond, nurturing of the spousal relationship and its needs over what a child thinks they need.

Teenagers (and toddlers) are worst at feeling that their wants and needs trump everything.   This is where our issue began and the discussion itself started.  B felt that she was no longer the focus of EVERYTHING her dad did, and suggested that since she was his bio-kid, she should be first in his life.  Now, yes, she should hold a special place, and she should be afforded HER time with him.  We gave her that opportunity, and she, on many occasions, refused to take her alone time or cut that short because she wasn’t in the mood, or he wasn’t spending money on her.  However, she still felt that he should be at her beck and call, wallet in hand.  The fact that dad had moved on and remarried, and has someone to keep him company while B is with her mom does not sit well.  B would rather he be lonely and ready to tend to her wants.   Teenagers are very selfish, and if allowed will just keep taking.  Ask any parent and they’ll tell you that they struggle with teaching that it’s not “all about me!” (we’ve all seen the t-shirts).  If you don’t have the foundation and strong relationship of the husband/wife, then in any family with kids, especially in a blended family you’re in deep trouble.

In our family, our bond, which was strong before we got married, was solid.  It is more solid now after dealing with ex’s and our new family.  Had we deviated from God’s plan for marriage at all, I don’t know where we’d be.  I am proud and thankful that my marriage is strong, and getting stronger with every trial we go through.  I strongly believe that there are people and things that want us as a new family to fail and they are well on their way to being disappointed because of our love for God, and our love for each other.

I’m in no way “done” with thoughts on our ordeals with B and the ex…rather I’m trying to work through them without being bitter or naming names on here.  I’d really love to write a letter to the ex and inform her of some things she doesn’t know (since she won’t look at me or speak to me).  However, I am standing my ground quietly and supporting D because he doesn’t need more drama, he needs love and to know that he is free to do what he feels necessary for B.

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What is with these things?!  I want some fun assignments.

I’m going to ignore this question, as there is no one I feel (which is probably not right of me) that I have to forgive.  There’s people that should ask me to forgive them…can I put them down?

Let’s go the Biblical route and further show how off base I am.  These verses come to mind:

(Matthew 18:21-22) 21 Then Peter came and said to him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, ““I don’t tell you until seven times, but, until seventy times seven.

(Mark 11:25) And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

(Luke 17:4) If he sins against you seven times in the day, and seven times returns, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.

(Ephesians 4:32) And be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, just as God also in Christ forgave you.

Crap. I just blew my own post.  This assignment is now going to prove how I don’t do what I’m supposed to do and therefore I am wrong.  Way to go Mel.

So, before really going into these verses, which we all know and love, let me just say this.  If I write here who it is I feel I have to forgive, it’s going to:

  • prove that I haven’t yet, and by default how I’m not listening to God completely
  • bring to the attention of others the fact that I feel I’ve been wronged and call out some people
  • show how long I can remember things/hold a grudge (you’d be impressed)

All things I don’t wish to do, sorry.

We are urged, commanded, instructed, told to forgive.  We’ve had this talk in Sunday School, and last week I started a section in my devotional, the difference in forgiveness and what we tend to think we have to do, which is “forgive and forget.”  We are never commanded to “forget.”  We are told to forgive up to 70 times 7, and also to forgive as many times as someone repents (seems like a good loophole).   I don’t think God wants us to forget things.  It’s a protective action to remember.  We should always remember who has done something against us, or what they did, I’m not saying dwell on it, but if you don’t remember, then I think you’re just a sitting duck waiting for them to do it again, because you’ve allowed them to do it once before (or numerous times if you “forgot”).  “Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.” Yeah, I know it’s not a verse, but it’s smart.

I think God wants us to forgive, because we can only be close to him when we allow him to handle how other people treat us.  It is his job to punish, teach, lead, convict them, not ours.  It also shows others His love through us, what he did for us is mirrored by our actions to others.  They can see His forgiveness through ours.  Hence, the commands.

Where the line bleeds for me (aka “my excuse”), is that I don’t think everyone listens to God, hence I don’t feel like they’re going to “get it” when God tells them “hey, you need to apologize to Mel.”   So once I feel wronged, I feel like it’s my job to cut my losses and move on.  Truthfully, if I’m not around them, or talking to them or they aren’t a part of my life anymore, then I don’t feel angry or upset, or “wronged” and can effectively (for me) move on comfortable in the knowledge that I handled it.  Apparently, I’m very wrong.  I’m just gonna sit here and be wrong in my wrongness for a minute…

Ok.  Yep, still wrong.  I have the uncanny ability to remember why you’ve pissed me off, and argue it until you get it, or just ignore you.  I don’t have a conscience about this.  It’s a fault, and I’m not even really concerned about it (I swear I’m not that arrogant – most of the time).  That goes into the whole “protect” mode I have going on.  I did not say it’s right, but it’s me.

So, I admit I’m not the person to ask for advice on forgiveness, unless you just want the rules.  I got those down.

~Mel

The previous post illustrates just how well I can argue, and talk in a circle without answering the original question.   You’re welcome.

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